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Prof. John Stackhouse's avatar

Thanks for the Substack introduction, Matthew. I find it immediately unpersuasive, I confess, if not also a little offensive—as I often do Orthodox (and other) defenses of divine impassibility—as if they alone have logic and good (theological) taste on their side! (You, my friend, seem never to sound condescending: one of the many reasons I regularly read you.)

These are Very Big Questions, of course, so I'll just signal my concerns here so as not to commit the typical Facebook sin of merely recording my disagreement—as it that should matter to anyone! (And, I'll say here and at the end, I am not defending Moltmann's or anyone else's views of the matter.)

1. Suffering will indeed be done away in the world to come: God's and ours. That's because the occasions (dare I say the *causes*) of suffering will be gone. So one can say that suffering is evil and God experiences suffering without contradiction and without positing evil as somehow constituent of God.

2. If God rejoices over repentance and obedience and delights in his children's sanctification, it would seem logical to infer that God experiences the emotions commensurate with his creatures' rebellion, disobedience, and obdurate wickedness. If God rejoices with those who rejoice, likewise it would seem logical to infer that God suffers with those who suffer.

That's what empathy and, even more, *love* entails. A God serenely unmoved by what is happening in and to and through us seems like a Hellenic ideal, not Biblical Yhwh.

3. Orthodox and other theologians sometimes resort to pairs of assertions that for all the world strike me as attempting to eat their cake and have it, too. "God doesn't suffer in God's own being," they say, "but suffers [add your favourite preposition here] his creatures."

That sentence is grammatical, but it is nonsensical. What is the Biblical ground to believe that holes up in some psychic holy of holies to reside unperturbed while all around him he is yet very much moved by what is happening? Moreover, there is no psychological coherence in such a picture, merely the (to my eyes, desperate) attempt to save the appearances by granting all the good arguments of the opponents while stubbornly maintaining one's view.

4. To say that "God suffers" implies an evil, or at least a shortcoming, within God is incorrect—and I think this may be the nub of the issue. Impassibility seems to some minds to be an excellency, a strength that these folk want to attribute to God. It seems to them somehow greater for God to be unmoved than moved. I think the fundamental category here is power: God, they feel, cannot be subject to anything else, including the follies of his creatures causing him suffering, or God would be less than fully excellent.

I think I get the force of that, but too bad: God decided, sovereignly and with no compulsion, to create us and love us. ONCE GOD DID THAT, he let himself in for a world of suffering. If you find that less than fully great, well, I'm not sure this is a theological issue as a psychological one. I myself find it deeply moving, literally praiseworthy, and at no time of the year, of course, more than Holy Week.

Thanks for the stimulation, my friend, and I hope you won't find impertinent my small attempt to represent another view. (And I hold no stock in anyone else's views of the matter, particularly Moltmann's. I'm to blame for any infelicities in the preceding.)

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Mordy's avatar

I found this article I link here below on impassibility very instructive, And it made me lean towards the idea of passibility, However, I can see problems with both arguments. I think the gentleman who glibly claims that it is simply a question of ontology is missing the forest for the trees. Unfortunately, some have an excess need to Harmonize doctrinal differences As if it was a question of making your taxes all come out nice and neat. "And it grieved God that he had made man"… Some versions use the word "repented"… That God feels And is moved by our prayers such as Abrahams argument with God… "And if there are 10 righteous"… This God is very much interacting and interceding and moving among humankind. This to me is fundamental to having a relationship with God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/impassibility-of-God.html

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